a catastrophe for rights. they are on a radical role. and we've got to do everything we can to stop them. >> everybody is on the menu except white christian conservatives. wake up everybody. stay. woke clay cane, michelangelo signorile thank you very much. that's it for the readout. all in with chris hayes starts right now. al>> tonight on all in. >> is there anything desantis could do to win over your support? >> no. >> the desperate quest to capture the soul of the republican party through hate and division. >> he's a bad candidate. he is not good. people don't like him. that has been proven to be the case. >> then the, how two states found one trump judge to score a massive fourth of july victory for misinformation. plus, and donald trump's codefendant heads to court, what we are learning from newly-unredacted mar-a-lago search warrants.

>> i did everything right and they indicted me. >> and what it means to set and then immediately break the record for hottest day ever recorded on planet earth. when all in starts, right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. hope you had a good july 4th weekend. we are rapidly approaching the real actual serious for now start of the 24 republican primary. the first rnc debate is next month in milwaukee where the republicans will also hold their 2024 convention. while it's still too early for any real predictions about who voters will choose or how this will play out, right now, speaking as of today, it does look like donald trump is way ahead of everyone else. and that is in large part because florida governor ron desantis, who was initially hyped up is the candidate who could take on trump, has seen his poll numbers tank. just look at the polling averages since the start of this calendar year.

desantis line should commit with its own slide whistle. he's almost 30 points behind trump in the average national polls. even a top official at a pro desantis super pac, recently conceded the florida governor's campaign has been a bust so far. >> right now, in national polling, we are way behind. i'll be the first to admit that, okay? i believe in being really blunt and really honest. it's an uphill battle. i don't think it's an unwinnable battle by any stretch, okay, but clearly donald trump is the runway front-runner. in the first four states, which matter tremendously, polls are a lot tighter. we are clearly still down. we're down double digits, we have work to do. we have wood to chop chop. >> it does seem like a bad sign when one of your cigarettes has to admit that you're opponent is a runway front runner. there are lotteries and why the sanders campaign is to sow per poorly. one reason is what some people are calling a lack of charisma, which seems to be alienating voters especially in those

states where you have a lot of retail politicking. here is an action and campaigns up at the southern border. >> there were people and i was waiting for him to g constand coming to the southern law i remember seeing libya. they're now i think they have identified about 10,000 chinese nationals coming across the southern border. >> i don't know. there's no accounting for taste. does that do that for you? i don't know. the candidate quality issues are only partly to blame for desantis's decline. a big part of the reason, i would submit, that he has failed to get any traction, is he has chosen, whether he realizes it, to run a weird, alienating, hard right campaign. like a ron desantis doesn't care who he offense kind of thing. and i understand the logic because there is an appetite for that in the republican base. he thinks,, i think, he can gain some traction in the darkest, most antisocial

corners of the internet where cruelty is a virtue. but i think even those folks and the people he is trying to appeal to will find his campaign's latest video to be as desperate and thirsty as the rest of us to. >> i will do everything in my power to protect our lgbtq citizens. >> would you come to the trump tower, and use the bathroom, be comfortable with that? >> that is correct. >> in the future can transgender women compete ian -- >> yes. >> make america great again. >> psych. >> i cannot think of anything

more horrifying -- >> it really has shut down -- >> it just produced some of the harshest most draconian laws that literally drain trans existence. >> congratulation ron, desantis. michelin complex. to you when. >> all right, there's a lot to see here. i understand that i and probably you are not the target for that video, which, fine, but everything about it is just so strange and so entirely alienating. you ask it's bag for folks like me. oh, liberals, like me, in that video, don't like ron desantis so you should like him either. but that's lost under the crushing weight under the sheer

effort to the uber online twitter nerds who came up with this you cannot understand how to act and interact with other people like a normal person. in fact, i would go so far as to say that most people are not the target i'd audience in this video. even the republicans are not the target audience. when you try to compare yourself favorably to a serial killer from american psycho, you may have lost the thread of it. when you hire campaign staffers, one of whom tweeted video, who have flooded praise on holocaust and ire nick fuentes, who like to hang out on parts of the internet where people impress each other with how much of an edge where they are and how they're never gonna get married or have any kind of romantic relationship. maybe this is kind of the campaign you end up running. so you've got to a disgusting, whatever, homophobic, offensive video, especially on a last night of pride month, and this is all overly determined. they're trying to incite a

backlash. i gather this video exists. again, for that purpose. we see what you're doing. but again, even on its own terms, i think you missed the mark. my strong instinct is that even to the base, this comes across like jabs infamous please clap. look at how edgy we are. on that show where steve cortez admits desantis is behind by a mile, the host of an informal scientific survey of his very online listener, which had trump trouncing desantis by 60 points, so he's not even winning over the kind of hyper engaged twitter people he is targeting. and then of course there are costs to this kind of thing. politics is addition, not subtraction. a cliché but. true many prominent lgbtq republicans who were somewhat supporting desantis are now turning to backs on him. the washington post reports today you can't

out-conservative trump. you can't run to his right on the culture war stuff. quote, desantis was the as the alternative to trump's those who didn't like trump. it's increasingly apparent he's now seen as the alternative to trump by those who know trump. as long as trump is in the race along as the race enters on trump's worldview, desantis will be able to pass him. again, i'm an outsider looking in and i will be first to admit that you don't necessarily go to chris hayes for the most obvious insight into the thinking of the media median republican voter. but, my two cents, if you want to beat donald trump in the republican primary, you need to comfort his voters and keep them in your fold. you can't be seen as anti trump. but then convince them that you are a better alternative and then add them to those who are not interested in voting for trump in the trial primary. you're not going to get there by trying to convince the biggest dorks on the internet but you are even more of a

callous psychopath than he is. tim miller's former communications director for please clap, jeb bush, 2016 campaign, now writer at large for the bulwark, where he wrote about the desantis video. meredith mcgraw is a national political correspondent of politico, where she's been writing about the lagging desantis campaign. tim, i feel like you will have something to say about this. i know partly what you're gonna say because eroded in the bulwark. but your read on, not just a video, but the strategy behind it and what it shows about how they are approaching this and maybe why it's not working. >> i think we could leave jab out of this, chris. it's been a tough few years for the jabs. but i appreciate it. the strategy here, i discussed on length so stipulating that, speaking of strategy, here's the problem. you hit it in part two. sanders's elevator pitch here to the republican primary voters was, i am a winner,

trump is actually a loser. i can give you all the maggot start you want, but actually win elections. so elective billet-y is a core part of that. i talked about the show in the koch brothers did a ad showing the probability. this runs directly counter to that. it seems to me the desantis team does not understand that their general election argument is directly tied to the primary argument. so yeah, they can get to the right of trump on certain things. things popular with the general electorate or the primary electorate. but if they keep trying to get to the right of trump on weird online things, there's 5% support for, even if the polls have gone in the direction i don't like on trans rights, eradicating trans people, extremely unpopular. exposing pride month, extremely unpopular. so i will go to phoenix

atlantic and win where donald trump lost, if you're the candidate, and then he went like this, it's a loser. and the republican primary voters, a few of them, the college educated ones, the one i talked to actually is a desantis turning point u.s. -- loves desantis because he seems so deficit. the college educated wants to gain this. out the non-college trump voters can smell it. he doesn't seem like a winner. he doesn't seem like an alpha. even if they don't believe the polls. he still is coming off wrong. i just think that it's wrong on both the electoral side of this as well as the moral, ethical side. >> i want to follow up on this, i don't want to bracket it because it's odious and gross, but i want to read what you said in the bulwark, making that point. and the voters in the atlantic suburbs who have the ban the gop in droves excited come back to someone who is going to trump's right on anti gay bigotry? do you think the mccain flake doocy voters who rejected creepy blake masters in arizona are going to be supporting --

i promise you the answer is no. meredith, as someone who has been watching this and writing about it is well, what do you think about this their understanding of what they're trying to do and whether that's working? >> on sunday night steve cortez, who worked for trump in 2016 and 2020 and then came over to support desantis and work on his pack had a pretty blunt admission and sort of where they're at in the race and also what they need to do moving forward. he said that trump is the front runner. stating the obvious about where they are in the polls when it comes to desantis being double digits behind donald trump. and he said that he hoped that it could perhaps turn things around if they got desantis's story out there more, his political story, his personal story. and what he is out there stumping in places like new hampshire, where he was at the

independence day parade air in wolfeboro and he's on to iowa where he has millions of dollars worth of door knocker's working on his behalf and doesn't seem like that message is becoming clear. as jim was talking about he's in a tricky spot when it comes to donald trump, where pulling polling has said republicans don't want to hear republicans bashing trump and going after him, so he can't do that. doesn't want to alienate that base of c.o.r.e. trump supporters. and he keeps going into the right of trump on issues like abortion, like gay rights and trans rights and even had republicans come out and rebuke the homophobic video that he released. so he's boxing himself in a real corner. >> to your point, there, and that's what's also weird about this, i'm just giving free

advice here. it's worth what i'm charging for it, for whatever primary concerns are watching this. but to your point, meredith, the polling says don't bash trump, which i think is probably true. they don't want to going in for trump. so why are you going after him in this way? it's like, of all the ways you go after him, you're alienating people because you are attacking him. iraqi trump see more moderate and electable. and then on the substance, tim, and i think it's worth taking this for a second, there is a feeling among right-wing lgbtq folks that you could cordon off the anti-trans staff, you could cordon off the anti dragon anti-groomer calumny that was spewed by republican politicians from the good conservative days. there's even a group called gays against groomers that was supposed to thread this needle, which is falling apart now as people understand that oh no they just don't like a people. that is always been the point.

as someone resigning from gays against groomers, that gag, which is because of desantis support by the leader of the group, a departure from gag, directly related to the founders outspoken support for desantis in light of his recent ad that is extremely anti gay. when i respect everyone's rights to their own opinion the homophobia coming from desantis campaign is not something i want to be affiliated with in any way, even by proxy through gag. that's it. that's the real reason. i want to be like no data, but it's also dawning on the most, i think, intentionally obdurate of folks that this is what this was about all the time. >> yeah. it's hard to know what's spoofing these days, but i promise you that i met and interviewed gays against groomers at some conferences last winter and i asked him about this very question. aren't you worried that this is going to blow back on you? are you worried that your rights are going to be

threatened by this is a lot of them said no but here we are. that gentlemen posted their. you had rick brunelle tweeted that this is homophobic and if rick brunelle says you went over the line that's very bad sign. trump national security advisor has gone very far over the line on issues related to all to be, despite the fact is openly gay. so i think that this is a real threat to them, that he thinks that these attacks are going to work. and they're not. i think it's a wake up call hopefully to people that it's not just going after trans people, not that would be okay obviously. this is going to continue to blow back on the whole community. desantis has been unapologetic. >> tim miller and meredith mcgraw, thank you both. we appreciate it. coming up, an orwellian ministry of truth. how a federal judge handed the right-wing comments section in a ruling against the biden white house. this is a wild story, and it's next. stick around.

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we got a very weird and seemingly sudden ruling from a judge, federal judge, in the western district of louisiana, with some broad first amended amendment implications. >> the federal judge barred parts of the administration from contacting social media platforms about online content. the ruling came in response to a lawsuit brought by republican led states alleging that the white house went too far in its efforts to curb content that

challenged vaccines or threatened elections. >> so this federal judge, as of yesterday, buyers key federal agents including the cdc, department justice, and the department of state from even contacting social media platforms like twitter, facebook, and instagram over concerns like misinformation on covid-19. the ruling the judge accuses federal government of some heavy stuff, saying they were running and orwellian ministry of truth, suppression of opposition and dissent. when you do a little googling, you quickly discover the plaintiffs, the republican attorneys general in louisiana and missouri, very clearly filed this case in this small district in louisiana because they knew there was a good chance they would get this guy on your screen, judge terry daunte. that's the same judge who blocked the vaccine mandate for health care workers in the middle of a once in a century pandemic. joyce vance's former u.s. attorney from the northern district of alabama. now a professor at the

university of alabama school of law. she joins me now. joyce, i have to say, i have read most of this opinion. it's a real head-scratcher. just take us through what the judge is ordering here. >> so the judge in essence is shutting down communication between broad parts of the federal government and the social media platforms. and chris, this is a two-way exchange, where the government shares information with the private sector about threats and risks, and the private sector shares its own information with the government. none of us are safe with a sort of exchange shut down. >> yeah, and i can understand and be sympathetic in the abstract concerns about government coercion, vis-à-vis speech platforms like facebook or twitter. it doesn't strike me as crazy that you would have those concerns. in this specific case is a lot focused on covid.

it's interesting. here is fauci on tv, on msnbc, cited in the ruling, talking about hydroxychloroquine. take a listen. >> all of those trials show consistently that hydroxychloroquine is not effective in the treatment of coronavirus disease. >> now that is true. it has been true. it is actually importantly true because many people were trying and not it wasn't working. the ruling says dutch voting made statements are good morning america on andrea mitchell reports that hydroxychloroquine is not effective entering the coronavirus. social media platforms into the americas frontline video on the benefits of hydroxychloroquine. but there is no causal relationship or even coercion alleged here. he just seems to be like implying it in a federal judicial order. >> i sense your frustration, chris, and i want to echo it

here, because the allegation is a first amendment violation from the government, that the government is compelling or restraining speech. and there is none of that. none of that established in his complaint. this is a preliminary injunction. the plaintiffs, the attorney generals and other parties, have to show insubstantial likelihood of success on the merits. but they can't show that the government was telling these companies that they had to remove speech from their platform just because doctor fauci was on television speaking the truth. >> there's also this question that kind of haunts in this case, when i saw the ruling, which is that this sort of forum shopping problem. we saw it most famously a problem with judge kacsmaryk, a district court judge in amarillo, texas, where the plaintiffs wanted to get mifepristone taken off the shelves went and they not only sued but they try to get a nationwide injunction. they succeeded in him issuing a nationwide injunction. it was later state by a certain court that would cut access for

people across the country. it just seems like a quick playbook to file the suit in this part of louisiana. i wonder what you think of it as the sort of loophole jurisdiction hacking that we are seeing increasing. >> yeah, so i think the situation is a little different. i think you're absolutely correct to point out that they sought to this particular judge out because they were aware that he had done a series of injunctions. he seemed to have a lot of animosity toward that and the governor approached covid in general. but this is a judge who was confirmed 90 80 in the senate. he is someone who is well qualified. the ava rated him that way, he had known both a prosecutor in a state court judge. he seems to have an issue in this one area. and what you would expect to happen is that the fifth circuit would reverse him very quickly. but the fifth circuit, of

course, as become an uber conservative circuit and whether they will do that remains to be seen. there are a lot of problems with this, not the least of which is that the plaintiffs don't seem to have standing. that basic doctrinal hurdle that parties have to pass. there are so many flaws in this case, whether the fifth circuit takes it on remains to be seen. >> we should know that the fifth circuit is also the appellate court for judge kacsmaryk, and a lot of people think the fifth circuit's inability to rein in of a guard federal district judges and their orders has been part of what has, essentially the, allowed for these kind of nationwide injunctions to happen. >> it definitely contributed to that nationwide injunctions have been nothing on both sides of the political aisle. but the way they are being used here in connection with judge shopping is particularly pernicious. >> i'm going to be curious to

see what the fifth circuit does with this. i think it's headed for the supreme court, actually. we'll see what they make of. it joyce vance, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> still ahead, we've all seen the pictures of the classified documents stacked around donald trump's toilet. but a new ruling tonight could shed even more light on the case against trump. that's next. that's next. cold water, on those stains? ♪♪ cold water can't clean tough stains? i'd say that myth is busted. turn to cold, with tide. humpty dumpty does it with a great fall. >> it has been over three weeks wonderful pistachios. get i'd say thcrackin'is busted.

since donald trump appeared in federal court, miami, and pled not guilty to 37 felony counts over his handling of classified documents. those counts include, among others, violations of the espionage act, willful retention of national defense information, and, notably, conspiracy to obstruct justice. in the indictment jackson's team also charged trump's personal valet, walt nauta, as trump's clothes can fear spears. walt nauta has not been formally rain. yet he's been unable to find local council to represent him in florida, but he's doing court tomorrow. while we wait on that arraignment today federal magistrate judge in florida released never before seen parts of the august 2022 search warrant that led to mar-a-lago being searched. that led to the fbi also finding a trove of classified documents over 100 in fact, a trump's beach club. we learned in the newly unsealed portions of the search warrant the, quote, in addition to the approximately 85 to 95 boxes located in the storage room they are also other boxes

in the storage room with merchandise, such as challenge coins, garment bags, memorabilia from mar-a-lago such as photographed frames and other decor items. mr. greenberg's federal prosecutor for the southern district of new york where she serves as deputy chief of the criminal division. kristie, obviously the most incriminating stuff, i think, in terms of the case against trump, appears in the indictment, although there may be more incriminating stuff to watch during the trial, so that the application, the search warrant, comes earlier in the timeline. nevertheless, it's yet another day to point out how recklessly was this was stored in how it's all kind of mixed in as, like, his own stuff, which is he keeps saying, my papers, my papers, my papers. >> right, so this search warrant affidavit, what has been unredacted shows how incredibly detailed this affidavit was and that heat there was ample call probable cause to search specific

locations at mar-a-lago. you have evan corcoran's statements that he searched only the storage room because he was told nothing, there are no other locations that had classified information. you also had other boxes that were moved from the storage room. and how is that laid out in the indictment, in the affidavit? well, they show you the photographs. we have seen those in the unredacted version for the first time. the surveillance footage if is explained in detail. what is still redacted, i suspect, is the confidential source information that is likely here, i would say, based on the indictment, that's trump employee to, who has text messages with nauta about moving the boxes to and from the storage room. when you want to get a search warrant you not only one confidential source information if you can get it, but you want that corroborated. i suspect that you had that here. you had the confidential source and you had, as we can see from what's unredacted, all of this corroborating evidence in terms of photographs and surveillance

footage. so when trump's lawyers and not as lawyers try to move to suppress the evidence that was obtained from this search warrant, they are going to fail. this is just incredibly detailed. eugene garland also approve this and you don't get this kind of a search warrant for former presidents location approved without the pc being incredibly strong. >> then you've also got all the ducks in a row, you've got all this evidence and then if you go and you don't find anything, it looks pretty bad. but when you go in and you actually get 100 documents, those things together make it all look pretty above board. >> right. and again i'm suspecting it's redacted, but based on what they learned from the confidential source, they knew the classified information was going to be there. they see that in the pc section, no probable cause section. we are investigation had established. there is classified information

in other locations outside of that storage room. how? we don't know, because of the redactions, but i suspect it's the confidential source. >> there's also been some other activity in the other special counsel investigation. day-by-day we sort of get more little glimpses of it. little things that peak above the surface of the water. in this case is the arizona republic that has some local reporting about arizona. one of those states that we know from rusty bowers and others, die doocy, the governor recently saying trump pressured him to overturn election. jack smith has subpoenaed these secretary of state, sought information relates to lawsuits one from trump's campaign another from former arizona republican party -- kelly word alleged terrorism fraud in the 2020 presidential results. we don't really know necessarily what that means. but how do you see this fitting into what we can glean from what we do know publicly about what they are looking at? >> it said in that article that they were looking at documents

in particular showing in connection with those lawsuits, communications with the attorneys, with trump's counsel. and that's consistent with other public reporting that really trump's lawyers had been the focus of that january 6th investigation. we know from public reporting that john eastman's cell phone has been seized pursuant to a search warrant, and the same with jeffrey clark, corporate doj official. again, you need probable cause to get search warrants for individuals devices, particularly lawyers. so it seems as if the lawyers are really a focus here. >> yeah, and of course, lawyers being a focus is a through line on everton corcoran who is a key part of building the case, particularly for obstruction in the indictment against on trump. you said this, and again, all of us are essentially flying blind. we don't know. we can just glean together from the public clues we have. but you said predictions, look for charges and special counsel jack smith jarry six probe against trump and his former

lawyers this summer. what sort of moved you to make that prediction? >> there's been some public reporting that prosecutors are -- charging decisions, but you've seen a steady stream of witnesses for the federal grand jury in recent weeks. there's also reporting that the special counsel's office, which is really pressing attorneys not to have delays. they need to get into the grand jury before the end of june. why is that the case? presumably they have a timetable here. i'm guessing at least part of that timetable is informed by what fani willis is doing in georgia. she has already said her timetable is and of july, early to mid august. so i think you can also look at the fact that they have amassed evidence from really donald trump's inner circle. we know that his campaign officials, gary michael brown's been in the grand jury, michael roman apparently is cooperating. he was the director of election day operations. state officials in all the

background states. you've got potentially mark meadows, white house counsel night mike pence. if you have this inner circle, you really, i think nearing the end of the investigation. >> all right, christy greenberg, as always, a pleasure, thank you very. much still to come, three years after america was swept up in a summer protest following the police murder of george floyd, how is the company placed changed? an author on his new book, ahead. new book, ahead. and glides on without irritation. so you can glide through your entire day with confidence. ♪♪ feel the dove men glide. choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand

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sweating it out, with humidity affecting parts of the south and the west. authorities say a 57 year old woman died during an eight mile hike in the grand canyon. with temps topping 100 degrees. cities like las vegas and phoenix, expected to again top triple digits today. the extreme temperatures feeling fast moving flames in washington state. with fear is that risk of wildfires may increase during july 4th celebrations. >> as it turned out yesterday, july 4th ended up being the world's hottest day on record. let me say that again. the hottest day ever recorded since we began keeping track. as environmental activist and writer bill mcatee put it, no human has ever seen it hotter. quote, the best estimate of climate scientist as that it was the hottest day since sometime in the last inter glacial period, 125,000 years ago, right about the time that

other scientists think humans etched the first symbols on to bone in started wearing shells as decorations. it broke the previous record set on, well, july 3rd. the day before. for more than four decades we've been taking this global temperature. an average from all sorts of data points around the world you can think of it like a thermometer. for the planet. and it's telling us that we are sweating a very serious fever. we've started to reach the threshold, surpassing the target for global warming, set by experts and policy makers decades ago. you may have heard this number, it's the amount of warning that we are trying not to exceed. 1.5 degrees celsius. above what's called pre-industrial levels. that is before we started burning fossil fuels, and pushing tons of carbon into the atmosphere. now, the thing about that number, is it doesn't sound like much. 1.5 degrees. it's about 2.7 degrees fahrenheit, which is closer to understanding what it really means. if you think about it again, like a thermometer. it's like going from a normal

98.6 degree body temperature, to spiking a 101.3-degree fever. i want to 1.3 degrees, you're pretty sick. you're definitely feeling it. you're not gonna die, but if you spike a couple more degrees, you're gonna probably end up in the hospital. that metaphor is literal. because the human body really struggles in high heat, particular when combined with humidity. recent heat wave in texas resulted in hundreds of hospitalizations, at least 13 deaths, 11 of them coming in just one county. two others died while hiking in -- park in west texas. as temperatures rise, experts are acknowledging, we're more likely than not to exceed that 1.5 degree target. in fact, it's all but assured at this point. the only way to make sure we don't end up producing a kind of global hospitalization or kind of civilizational heat death, is to continue to rapidly expand investment in

and deployment of carbon free energy, and then we have to start figuring out how to take carbon out of the atmosphere at scale. even if we do that, it's gonna get hot and hotter. we are now finding out what it is like to live with a level of heat, unlike anything humans have experienced for thousands of years. spoiler alert. it's not great. it's not great

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>> streaming across the brooklyn bridge, thousands walked to honor george floyd. parents and their children, following floyd's brother, marking another peaceful protest as many demand change. >> my brother is gone. the floyd name still lives on. [applause] >> three years ago, this month, we're in the middle of an intense summer of protest following the police murder of george floyd in minneapolis, caught on a cell phone camera. it was a movement like we have not seen in half a century, perhaps ever, if you just count the numbers. america took to the streets by the tens of thousands, all across the country. cities big and small. during the first year of the global pandemic, to march in solidarity for racial justice. now, three years later, it's worth stepping back to survey what changed after the months of protest and what is not. the question, at least the framing about how backlash works, makes a part of the new book, by journalist wesley lowery, entitled american

whitelash, a changing nation in the cost of progress. as we reported from ferguson, missouri, during the 2014 protest, that followed the police killing of teenager michael brown, covering it all extensively with his calling to the washington post, he was even arrested at one point, documenting the encounter on his phone. later writing about the experience. 2016, lowry won the pulitzer prize for his fatal force project, which established a database, the first of its kind ever on police shootings nationwide. mr. leathery's book, american whitelash, is out now i'm glad to have you here tonight. wesley, welcome, congrats on the book. i want to start with this framing of progress, backlash, as a kind of familiar encyclical to step in the story of american racial progress. in particularly, reconstruction in the redemption civil rights movement, backlash to that. barack obama being elected president, and what came after that. now, how you think about those cycles as the framing device for the book. >> of course, things are having me, chris. i really started thinking this

was after talking to some historians, about a tug of war. i think sometimes we try to divide history into these clean sections, they never really work. what happens on day one is always influenced by whatever happened the day before we decided the section began. instead, after to think about this as a push and pull. that we have a nation that's founded on a racialized cast systems, that we write into our laws. the creation of race. we know races biological, it's not biological. it's a social construct. it's not actually real. we decide at the beginning, to make it something that our society structured around, in terms of who has what rights who has what claims to freedom. so, what that does, it necessitates in the pursuit of multi racial democracy, and of an equal society, it necessitates people to fight on behalf of multiculturalism, in a multi racial democracy. so, as they pull in that direction, the people who benefited from the initial system, for those who enjoy the

status quo as is, or at least to believe that they were the winners of that, they talk. back we see this back and forth across our history. in moments where it appears as if, and when the fact that there have been real steps towards a multi racial democracy, what we see our forces in favor of a more white supremacist structure, that pullback. >> the subject of your book is about the most extreme versions of that. it extends through a period of time, in the wake of barack obama being elected, some of the incidents that you talk about in the book, for instance, the killing of heather hire in charlottesville, after the march, or quite well well-known. some are less well-known. it's the most violent examples of this kind of backlash manifest, in which individuals actually commit horrifying and heinous acts of brutality to try to wrench that, tug that progress back. >> of course. i think it's been a great body of work, body of literature, in

recent years, looking at the ways in which systemically in structurally there is a negative response, a backlash, a whitelash, to systemic progress. we talk a lot about voting rights. we talk a lot about mass incarceration we talk a lot about school segregation. let's be clear i would ever suggest we talk less about those things. but i also think it's important for us to think about, these are not all academic concepts, not all concepts for this debate of theoretically, should we do affirmative action policy, should we get rid of? it is that theoretically a failing of multi racial democracy? in these moments, following progress, we see people who commit acts of violence in the name of retaining and restoring weight supremacy. and will lose their lives in the meantime. i think that we have to focus on that and talk about that not at the expense of the other stuff and they're great books, carol innocent white rage for an answer, ever to go read. but beyond that, when we have conversations about political

rhetoric, about the public square about what should we do as members of media institutions. what should we do with politicians who would appeal to this white racialized anxiety? we have to understand that the stakes are. the stakes are that real people might lose their lives in the midst of this. this is an academic, it's not theoretical. there are real, real issues at play here, real people have been victims of this era. >> yeah, there's always this question, i think, in some cases. in the case of charlottesville, for instance, that was just so clearly like part of an organized movement, there was a group of racist and fascist sympathizers who congregated for this purpose. this woman was murdered their. there are others that feel more, for lack of a better word, one of. they're shooting, the mass shooting and murder at the sikh temple that you chronicle in the book. how do you think about this line between like a lone wolf, or a disturbed individual, or

individual act of violence, and the ideological movement they're pursuing? >> of course. when we look at these incidents that we think of as lone wolf attacks, or incidents where white supremacists act out and they do so without a formal affiliation of any group, we have to understand the ideology. the way that these white supremacist groups have operated and no operator for decades. there was a time when was much more hierarchical and democratic. when we saw federal law enforcement get informants, and they could file organizations like the -- could file civil raw, suits and bankrupt him. so, the white supremacist, i, mean they write this in their literature. they shifted to what they call a leaderless resistance frankly, it's similar to conversations that we see on the left elsewhere. this idea that you're trying to process the ties to the masses, so any individual can receive the mission's and act. oh what we see are these cases where, whether be dylan roof or others, they don't need the instruction of a group. all they need is the political

rhetoric rhetoric to's bite their interest, send them on some doubles searches, real people lose their lives. >> your new book, american white, lashes out now. thank you very much. wesley. >> that's rather me. that is all in on this wednesday night, remember, you can get all the best video from the show, and much much, more by falling on the big new social media law that launched, threads. it's my instagram. all the cool kids are on it. we are at all in with chris, chris el hayes. come follow us. we're threading stuff, apparently. alex wagner tonight starts right now, with alicia menendez in for alex. good evening, alicia. >> good evening, chris, as soon as i'm offset. i will become the next follower to the chris hayes show. thank you, chris. >> that means a lot. >> one more for you. thank you for you at home for joining us this hour, alex has the night off. what a night it is in the past two hours. we have been speed reading the newly unredacted affidavit that the government used to get a search warrant for trump's mar-a-lago -- last year. nbc,